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Lynne Munro: Standing in Your Difference

Talk of the T-Town Podcast Show Art

Episode 9

To be a pioneer, that means you’re the first person walking through the jungle with a machete. So I’m being hit in the face, you know, I’ve got the leaves and the twigs and the plants and all the things hitting me in the face and I’m cutting my way, and hopefully, I’m sure the people coming behind me will find it easier”

– Lynne Munro
Sports Science PhD, Biomechanist and Sprint Cycling Coach

This week on Talk of the T-Town, Joan and Andy sit down with Lynne Munro, sprint cycling coach for the Australian Cycling team, and discuss confidence in cycling, gender bias in the cycling community and the challenges that brings, and a dive into some “shop talk” between Lynne and Andy.

Find Lynne on Twitter @lynneamunro


Transcript

Joan Hanscom:

Welcome to the Talk of the T-Town Podcast where we discuss all things track cycling, broadcasting from the Valley Preferred Cycling Center, I’m your host and executive director, Joan Hanscom, along with my cohost, athletic director, Andy Lakatosh.

Joan Hanscom:

Welcome to the Talk of the T-Town Podcast. This week’s guest, Lynne Munro from Cycling Australia, has a lot of really interesting and important topics to discuss. We originally recorded this episode with my cohost, Andy Lakatosh, but we had some sound recording issues, but the topic was so great that we didn’t want to lose the episode and not bring you this really great content, so bear with us. In many parts of the conversation you’re about to listen to the role of Andy Lakatosh is going to be played by me, Joan Hanscom, as we rerecord some of the sound bytes that didn’t successfully record the first time though. While it may be a little bit of a weird listening experience to hear me voicing Andy’s questions, we hope you’ll find the content worth listening to regardless, and we hope you really enjoy what Lynne has to say.

Joan Hanscom:

Today’s guest is Lynne Munro. She joins us from Australia where she’s a sprint coach with the Australia Cycling Team. She’s been to T-Town for the past few years, with 2020 being the exception because we didn’t have any international racing, but we’re very much looking forward to having her come back. She’s an exciting guest to us because she’s a woman coach at a very high level of the sport, and in a world that’s very male dominated. We’re very excited to have her, so Lynne, welcome.

Lynne Munro:

Thank you very much and that’s very nice of you to invite me on, and nice to have the option to get to chat to you guys. I definitely miss not being over in T-Town this year, so it’s nice to have a bit of catch up.

Joan Hanscom:

Yeah, and hopefully we’ll get to see you next year.

Lynne Munro:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we’ve loved our years over with you guys, so yes, it’s been a very interesting time kind of sitting at home and doing things differently this year.

Joan Hanscom:

If definitely didn’t feel the same in 2020 not having 200-some international cyclists in town for UCI events in June, and just having training sessions with 25 people at a time and running TTs, but it still felt like we were doing something, something that was pretty normal. Speaking of missing T-Town racing this year, let’s start. If you had to pick one thing that was your favorite coming to T-Town with the team for the past couple of years, what would you say that makes T-Town so special or that you enjoy the most about coming over?

Lynne Munro:

Look, I think it’s the people. If I had to choose one thing, there’s many things actually that’s been great about it, and it’s a combination of the people from the locals in terms of just the local community, but also you guys program stuff. It sort of has started to feel a little bit like family. We get to know the faces, get to know the personalities. I think also for us, because we tend to move around the world going to World Cups as they have been, or nation’s cups as they’re going to be, and you sort of touch base with a number of people that because your colleagues but you only ever see them for short periods of time. And so I think it’s nice. Also the last couple of years we’ve been over there for a full month and you’ve got lots of international teams and coaches and friends and colleagues from around the world and so that’s just awesome that you get to spend that time with people and get to know them a little bit deeper, and you have opportunities for social time as much as you do in competition on the track.

Lynne Munro:

So, it’s a really, really nice environment and it’s nice to, even for us be in one place where you can learn and grow, go and try some stuff out in the racing, go away, check and challenge yourself in terms of what you’re doing, let the riders have some time to reflect and debrief and then go back in again. In the meantime, you’ve got beautiful riding around the country as well so yeah, beautiful.

Joan Hanscom:

It’s definitely special to get that extended time here, and you get to know each other a little bit better, spend more time with each other, not just like at a World Cup where you fly in, do your race, and then fly off to the next one. For the listeners who don’t fully appreciate that, teams and athletes come here and they get to know our spectators, they get to know the personality of the racers here all season long. And one thing that gets lost in all of that is the personality of the coaches, and some of the really impressive credentials of the riders and the coaches who pass through here every summer. So if you could give our listeners a little bit of background on your own way into coaching, into your PhD, and all the things that have gotten you to the point where you are now as a very high level, elite level coach.

Lynne Munro:

Okay, I actually started off more in the strength coaching. That was my background and when I did my sort of undergrad in sport science, that was where my focus was, and I was riding and training a lot of the time myself. I’ve been quite a hybrid rider, done probably more road than track, but always been involved in competing on multiple sports as well. So that’s probably why I focused more on the strength side of things because I was involved in multiple sports across my time. Then as I was more focused on my riding people got to know that I had that background in understanding the science of it and, therefore, were interested in the training that I was doing, so I ended up cycle coaching and working with a number of different levels of rider locally. Then from there, progressed into, I ended up working with Cycling New Zealand and moved up in my sport science to do a master’s, and I did the master’s with the Sprint program there, which was when Justin Grace was building the kind of foundations of the New Zealand Sprint Trio, which was really, really exciting.

Lynne Munro:

Sort of, Damian Wiseman, who was the sport’s scientist at the time were building effectively what was a bit of a backyard project into a world beating team, which was really phenomenal to see happen. And then I got the opportunity to work with the cycling team in the Scottish program, and moved over there just ahead of the Commonwealth Games in 2014. So I was with their program through the 2014 Common games, which again, really exciting. And that was a time where we were still actually looking at was like the back end of Chris Hoy’s career, whether he was going to still be in the Scottish team for the Common games that year. And then he’d actually decided to retire. So then sort of saw the transition that was then into the sort of era of Callum Skinner, at that point. And actually very young Jeff Arlen was kicking around the pits at that time, which was really nice. And there was a wonderful kind of balance between the GB program obviously encompasses the different kind of countries within the UK, in terms of Scotland, England and Wales.

Lynne Munro:

And so for the Common games, you sort of split out into the different countries, but you’re still kind of working with the parent body. So there was a really nice sense of having our own style and our own ethos within the Scottish program but then working alongside the GB coaches in the GB program as well, which was really nice. And then things because of that kind of split in terms of how Britain works, there was a bit of a low after the 2014 Common games for the Scottish program. And at that point, I got offered a PhD over in Australia.

Lynne Munro:

And for me, the big exciting thing for Sprint is we’re at this kind of stage where we’re really starting to understand the science of it a lot more. And I was aware already through my work with Cycling New Zealand and then Scottish team is that the there’s this real massive opportunity in Sprint to start to really hone what we’re doing, hone a training, hone understanding for more effective gains. So I really wanted to do that PhD. And it was quite a big step for me to effectively stepping back out of coaching for a number of years to do that. But I knew that it was worthwhile in terms of where I was going. So yeah. So I took that that scholarship opportunity, landed in Perth NWA in Australia, did my PhD there and actually, whilst I was there had the opportunity…

Lynne Munro:

Australia is very fortunate in having state based systems that feed into the national system. So each state has a very well support high performance program. So I actually supported the WA program, the WA Institute of Sport with their Sprint program, whilst I was doing my PhD. And my PhD ended up being in collaboration with the Australian Institute of Sport and the Sprint program of Australian Cycling Team. And that was always my pitch anyway, because I knew what I was going to be doing was something that was going to be groundbreaking and leading things forward. So yeah, really, very humbled to have the opportunity to pitch what I like to do to people like Nick Fletcher, our head coach, and he just thought this was a fantastic opportunity that I actually very naively pitched to do something that the AIS had been trying to achieve for about eight to 10 years, I believe. And I’ve heard that from multiple sources, and hadn’t managed to do it. And it was just pure naivete, that I then went, “Oh, yeah, I reckon I could probably do that.” And set my course.

Lynne Munro:

And so [Netflighters 00:09:37] was like, “yeah, great, love to see this happen.” And I achieved it. So I think that was for me… It was very challenging and PhDs are hard enough as they are, but then when you’re doing something that people haven’t been able to do before, you very quickly lose any supervisor potential and there’s not a lot of people that are able to help you. So I grew a lot in that time, a lot in a number of ways. And by the end of that program, the Australian Cycling Team brought me on board initially, actually as the biomechanist, on the back of the PhD. But then, because I obviously went to Commom coaching, we established a joint role with the South Australian Institute of Sport, which is where the Sprint Cycling Team is based. And so I lead their Sprint program, initially as well.

Lynne Munro:

So I was leading the Sprint program there, biomechanist for the Australian cycling team. And then after my first year there, we introduced a new program to the Australian cycling team, which was like an academy level, and sort of just one step down from the Olympic guys. So I started with Australian team there as the sprint coach as well. And so now I’ve ended up as a full time sprint coach basically. And the biomechanics stuff sits a little bit in the background. But I still use that skill base. And yeah, that kind of brings me to present day. So, been quite a journey.

Joan Hanscom:

Yeah. And you used a word that I found to be appropriate, interesting. To me, you used the word groundbreaking in talking about some stuff there, and I think groundbreaking might apply on the science side and the technical side of your work. But certainly you are one of the few women coaching in your discipline at your level. And I know that, speaking for myself doing what I do, I’ve sort of faced similar but obviously not the same issue, but being a female who is sort of groundbreaking in the sport as well. You face the same issues, I think on either side of the playing field. I’m putting on the races, you’re working with the athletes who are racing the races, but I think you can’t ignore that there’s a real gender bias in our sport, it’s heavily male dominant. And I’d be really curious to know, just for my own personal edification, but I’m sure our listeners are curious to hear, did you confront any of those gender barrier as you were getting into your roles? And have you experienced them? And how do we, as women in the sport, change that and raise other women up? Or give other women advice in the sport?

Joan Hanscom:

I know, I had one time and I started really on event marketing sides or a heavily marketing side of the role and not so much on the event production that evolved later. But I remember one guy from the industry said, “Well, at least you race bikes, so you have credibility with me.” And that was what it took for me to be a credible, even a marketing person in sport. And just he was so dismissive, “well you race bikes so that gives you credibility.” And I took that to heart like, “oh, I better never stop racing bikes because then I won’t have credibility to my male peer group.” I thought, “What a horrible thing.” But, in a way, it was good advice. Right. But in a way, it’s horrible.

Lynne Munro:

Yeah, look, it’s really hard. And I’m sure that everybody going through any high performing industry and sports will say all things are hard. But there’s this additional layer that happens when you’re dealing with bias of any sort, and you can you talk about this kind of the progressive pathway of privilege, and people will talk about the pathway privilege that have got everything their way and everything they find life less hard than if you… but I’m not saying for any stretch of the imagination that there are people in far more challenging positions than me. But as you say, when you’re a woman in this industry, and you look around, and there’s nobody else around you, it adds this extra layer of challenge to you every day.

Lynne Munro:

And there’s a sense of it can add self doubt as well, because you are sitting at the table. And the broader sense of that is the pits and the competition arena, but in even just in the basic sense sitting in meetings where there’s only you and only your voice is representing difference. And so there’s sometimes that question of going, “well, is it a personal difference? Or is it a gender difference?” And there’s nobody there to validate that opinion. And so when you do experience what you know to be biases, what you know to be dynamics that are not working for you and that are opposing you. There’s no shoulder to actually say, “no, hang on, that’s not just Lynne that’s feeling this, that’s us that’s feeling this.” So it’s incredibly tough.

Lynne Munro:

Over the years, I have definitely experienced odd bits of very explicit bias where there’s absolutely no doubt and you go, “Wow, really?” And again, there’s not nobody at your shoulder to help you go through that. I think more recently, I came across a turn, this European on a program for female high performance coaches through the AIS talent program. And it was helping us actually work through how to leverage change and how to affect systemic change in the system, which has been incredibly powerful. But early on, in that course this year, they gave us a paper that was talking about second-generational gender bias. And my naivete, and I’m sure there’s plenty other women out there who’ll have known that term. I didn’t know that term. And it was talking about the fact that first-generational gender biases are really explicit stuff that absolutely no doubt, I’m feeling that directly.

Lynne Munro:

The second-generation of stuff is more around the dynamics and in the room, and there’s subtleties of, that the humor is not working for you. So therefore, you’re not included in any of the jokes. And if you’re not included, then you start to feel like, especially with leaders and their peers, if the leaders are experiencing a sort of in-joke, and they’re all joking together, and you’re excluded from that, then you start to feel that separation. You’ve just said a minute ago, Joan, where you’re then asked to prove yourself or just all of the little subtle messages that you’re getting that you’re maybe not quite being listened to, or the way that you need the dynamics to be are not really being accepted.

Lynne Munro:

So all of those little things become a picture around you. And having that term, second-generational gender bias in front of me was so incredibly empowering to just go, “Wow, that’s what it is. [crosstalk 00:16:17] that’s what I’ve been saying every day.” And the more that we share this message and talk about it, the more that it comes out as a known thing that people like myself are experiencing, then it starts to let us have the confidence. And you again, you’ll know, Joan, is this sense of, “why do women not have the same confidence?” It’s because of this, because you’re questioning yourself as the odd one out on a daily basis.

Lynne Munro:

So yeah, these sort of courses are really important for women to go through and work through. We started with empower yourself, how do you change yourself? How do you change your relationships? How do you change the system? So you’ve actually got to work within first because I know, overcoming those self doubts is so important. And having the ability to stand in my true authority and be ever part of who I’m capable of being, that’s something I have to work hard with, because you’ve sometimes got to stand in your difference. And say, “it’s okay to have this different perspective.” And it’s needed, and embracing diversity, embracing inclusivity. That is part of what I have to represent. And it’s part of what I have to lead the way with. And that’s hard as well, knowing that on the back of trying to forge my way in my career, and being at World Cups, and really high in competition where there’s a lot of pressure on to produce results that in addition I’ve got to be this pioneer.

Lynne Munro:

And it’s not like, “do I want to be a flag waiver?” Well, probably not at the outset of my life, but now I fully embrace it. And I’m like, “yeah, I’m going to be that person, I want to be that person.” But again, to be a pioneer means you’re the first person walking through the jungle with a machete. So I’m being hit in the face. I’ve got the leaves and the twigs and the plants and things hit me in the face, and I’m cutting my way. And hopefully, and I’m sure that the people coming behind me will find it easier. And there’s days where I go, “I’m so proud of that.” I’m so proud that the people coming behind me are going to find this easier. And I’m trying to bring people with me.

Lynne Munro:

But there’s also days where I go, “Wow, that really stung.”[crosstalk 00:18:26] So it’s a up and down ride. And this yeah, but that’s a big part of who I am. And I spend a lot of time, as you guys know, in some of the stuff that I’ve done whatsoever in T-Town is spend a lot of time making sure I talk to women at all levels, from community level upwards. Making sure I talk to prospective coaches and spend time mentoring them and investing to make that difference. And that’s really the answer. We got to join together. We got to use our voice. We got to bring people with us and empower them and try and overcome. So [crosstalk 00:18:59]

Joan Hanscom:

Yeah, I like what you said when you said that that difference voice that is needed. And it’s understanding. We have to understand it inside that that difference is needed. Because I think just knowing that is really empowering, right? It is empowering to know what the sport needs, what our industry needs, whatever you want to call it. The change that we’re pushing is actually needed. And we’re doing the thing that like you said, will make it easier for the women following behind. But yeah, I like that perspective of, “yes, this is a needed thing, and I am willing to do the work.”

Lynne Munro:

Yeah, I look out and I know that that’s very readily acknowledged by everybody around me, meaning the man in the environment. That’s something we’ve been looking at a lot at our coaching strategy in the last few weeks and really recognizing that diversity is the most important part of having a successful organization hence coaching team is diverse perspectives. But what’s really interesting is whether we are taking actual action towards that. It’s easy to learn to be a passive process where, I’ve had people say to me, “well, yeah, we do know we need more female coaches, but we just have to wait till those women pop up. Or okay.” But what are we doing to help them pop up?

Lynne Munro:

And that’s where some of that sense of really helping everybody in the environment understand the barriers. And again, I had a male coach meet to say that, “well, but sometimes men are not confident.” Yeah, sure. I completely agree. There’s not just this confidence lacking just in women, for sure there’s difference, but as I said earlier, it’s that sense that there are additional layers of challenge to be the only woman or to be one of few women to find that confidence. And the statistics around the women that go for high performing roles versus men are dramatic.

Lynne Munro:

There’s this inherent tendency of men to just be able to find that ability to say, “Yeah, okay, I maybe don’t tick all the boxes on that job description, but I’ll go for the job.” Where is the statistics? Absolutely bad that women don’t do that. So we’ve got to overcome that. And there’s got to be some absolute action taken not this passive process to say, “we have to help, we have to do stuff,” if the dynamics in the room are not working for women, I mean, that’s the essence of this. We are a patriarchal society until women become equal.

Lynne Munro:

So the dynamics of any environment are going to naturally have evolved from men being around. And that’s not being feminist, that’s just a statement of truth, we’ve evolved as a male driven society and the same sport. So until those dynamics in the room shift, we’re not going to actually have a truly inclusive platform. And so we all have to be invested in it. And it’s not about women and men separately, it’s all of us, and really taking action to recognize that, “yes, diversity is so important, and we need to work towards it.”

Joan Hanscom:

Couldn’t agree more. And, yeah, and I love to hear your voice on it. And I love to hear that your Federation is taking a leading stance on it. And, hopefully, there are women listening behind to say, “Yeah, I want to be a coach, or I want to be the race director for World Championships or something,” and we just, like you said, blaze a trail, because it’s got to get done. We are 52% of the population, we’ve got to do it.

Lynne Munro:

Yeah. And it completely proves that people listening that want to get involved, and it’s men or women, put your hand up. There are ways to make this happen. And there is anxiety that goes with it. I have nerves all the time and we see all these things out in the media around impostor syndrome and things. There’s loads of people out there who are in roles where they have nerves, and they have weaknesses, but that’s part of human growth. So you put your hand up and say, “I want to do this, I want to try.” And you build a network, and you reach out to people like myself. I really do want to be somebody that advocates and helps. And I’ve got a lot of people that I’m helping in the background here. Not even formally through my role, but just part of something I want to do to help people and be available to people to help them move through their desired career and goals. So do it, take action, do it for yourself.

Joan Hanscom:

Right on, right on. Just to put it into perspective for the listeners who don’t necessarily go to World Cups on a regular basis, because there’s none in the US since 2017. When you go to the championships as a coach, are there any other women actually taking Pro Riders to the line? In the scratch races? Are you standing alone, at that level right now?

Lynne Munro:

It’s somewhat different in endurance. There are more women around in [inaudible 00:23:50] in sprint, very, very rarely. There’s a couple of women out there who are kind of managers slash coaches, they’re doubling into coaching and getting skilled in terms of purely coaching or coaching Sport Science. I’ve seen one other female in the French team, the assistant coach in the French team at one World Cup. And that’s it. That’s all I’ve seen. So, I think across the last couple of years, I say the French coach and one other woman that I’ve met in that kind of management role. So yeah, and it’s very interesting. I think sometimes I’ve stepped to roll a Keirin Rider up to the line. And you’re surrounded by guys either side, and especially rolling the men up. And these are big boys. And you’re rolling up to the line you sort of look up and down the line either side of you. And you’ve got probably big burly coaches holding big burly guys and then there’s me and it’s like… It’s actually a real moment of pride for me.

Lynne Munro:

And you know that there’s a sense of that sort of almost… there was one World Cup, actually, well, because you guys will probably know, there is a skill in [malling 00:25:04] people up to the line and holding them and it’s not a high level skill, but it’s still a skill. There’s still some sense, especially when you’re in the spotlight at World Cup, of rolling people up. And there was a guy, one of the male coaches standing next to me, he wasn’t really achieving it very well, who ended up leaning on me. And I was holding my guy and holding this coach and his rider at the same time.

Lynne Munro:

And it was like I had a picture in my head. There’s a brilliant photo I’ve seen on Facebook at one point where the whole Keirin line has tipped over. And oh my God in this World Cup was a sense of that. The spotlight, the cameras, the cameras come down the line and look at you and look at your riders and introduce them to everybody at home and in the audience. And I was just going, “Wow, I’ve got this whole line propped up right now.”

Joan Hanscom:

Speaking of World Cups in the elite level, one questions I had for you. Athletes are going nine one, and ten one in the 200. And we thought that was insane to have riders actually going that faster on the track. But it’s at 8000 feet or something like that. So you go, “Yeah, okay, anything’s possible at that height.” But then we get to World Cup Berlin and see a nine two and attend three from a woman at sea level. What do we think about the speeds? Does it even seem real to witness Dutch guys going that fast? And the German women were unstoppable at World’s this past year in sprinting? And just let’s get your thoughts on what it’s like seeing that in person?

Lynne Munro:

Yeah, look, I guess Firstly, just talking in terms of actually being a spectator sport before I go into the sort of background of achieving these things, it’s incredible. And that’s what sport is for me is that, it’s the highs and the lows, is the journey that you’re on, having those moments where you guess, “that’s the draw card, isn’t it.” That’s the moment of adrenaline where everybody just goes, “wow, human potential,” and it captivates the mind and the heart and the soul. Just looking at that sense of how people can rise and go above and beyond what we believe we’re even capable of. That’s what it’s all about, for me. And those moments of just everybody gasping together and that sense of collective all of the human race.

Lynne Munro:

In terms of achieving in sprint, look, there’s all sorts of factors that can contribute to this two things stepping forward. But I think we’re at a really interesting time in sprint performance right now where it’s almost the perfect storm scenario where lots of gains are coming together. An aerodynamics colleague of mine in Australian Cycling Team, talked about a real sense of understanding, just his area recently where he said, “you’re on this kind of exponential curve, where at the start of the curve, you’re starting to understand your area, starting to understand how it can impact and you have to learn how to apply that knowledge. And then the exponential curve suddenly kicks up, because you’re really starting to understand how to apply that knowledge. And then you get to kind of the top end, and it starts to flatten off in the other direction, where there’s no almost a limit to, we’ve kind of know much of everything that we think there is to know. And we also know how to apply it.”

Lynne Munro:

And so I think that sort of analogy to a number of areas of sprint, it’s like we’re almost in that really exponential pickup point of the curve for a number of areas, not leases, the physiology and how we apply that, the training application, understanding humans and how we get them on the line and how they find more in themselves. And the technology, use of gears, position, so supply and demand aerodynamics and power, all of that stuff that we’re achieving this amazing sense right now. And that was what really excited me about getting into first of all, my masters and then my PhD, is that underpinning my coaching is like, “yeah, there was this amazing potential to be tapped into in sprint.” And that’s not saying, again, talked to a colleague recently about some of the amazing gains that have happened in team pursuit recently.

Lynne Munro:

So it’s not that you suddenly like, “just because you’re in this sort of perfect storm era, that that stops there.” But I think that that’s kind of where we are is, we’re just seeing all these doorways open and people really starting to understand how to hone everything about what we’re doing. Also, including identifying people who are the right people for sprint. But traditionally, this is something we’ve talked about in Australia very much in our pathway process is, traditionally here, people have tended to be on the road as a road rider because that’s accessible and then they become endurance riders, then they’re maybe not good enough at endurance then suddenly they go, “Maybe that wasn’t my discipline, maybe I’ll go sprint.”

Lynne Munro:

Whereas if you identify early and this is what the Dutch are really good at, is that link between some of those guys been amazing BMXs. And so you’re identifying people who’re being sprint potential early. So there’s some of that at play here as well as actually we’re getting to know what the actual ideal person is for a discipline. And that’s a lot of work that I’m doing right now as well as really understanding the athletes. And are we actually getting the right riders into the right disciplines? In any sport, actually, have we got people sitting in sports that are fitting who they are?

Joan Hanscom:

You’re right. I think so often you see people who try to go against, not type, right? I mean, use myself as an example, right? I should never have gone into a sport that required you to be a small person, but yet I’ve done it twice. And it’s, “Can you find the person with the right genetic requirements for the thing.” And here, I’ve always sort of said, “the number one sport in America, right, is NFL football.” It is hands down the most lucrative sport, it’s the most popular sport. And I thought, “wow, if we could get our sprinters to come from these collegiate football programs, you’d be tapping in to the right genetic gene pool to make great track cyclists, great sprinters if you could get those people from that explosive of a sport with that size and makeup.” And that’s an oversimplification.

Joan Hanscom:

But I think that’s where you’re going to see these gains. If the top 1% of all your athletes goes into football, because it’s the best sport, most lucrative whatever. And then the top 1% of that 1% goes into the NFL football, we’re missing that whole amazing human potential in our side of the sport. So it’s putting those right athletes in the right place. And again, I know that’s a vast oversimplification. It’s the non PhD interpretation of what you’re saying. But it does open up the whole spectrum of possibility then for your sport when you see it happening. So it’s really fascinating.

Lynne Munro:

Yeah, look, I’ve got a couple of answers to that. Because the first one is, it’s also about enjoyment here. I don’t think any of us should ever forget that this is about doing something that you’re passionate about. So we can be overly scientific about this. And that’s something, I guess, really strongly to the fore in my coaching ethos is people. And I’ve had that one kind of almost hold me back through my coaching career. People see me as this Dr. Munro, “she’s a PhD scientist.” And so I’m a science based coach. And that’s almost exactly the opposite of who I am. I use that academic process to further my understanding, but it’s about people for me first. And so for me, it’s the finding of the passion, it’s the finding of the characteristics of somebody who knows how to apply themselves, is passionate, and relenting in doing so, that’s really got to be the most important characteristic.

Lynne Munro:

So when we talk about the characteristics of a sprinter, it starts with the personal characteristics. It’s not just the physiological. But yes, you’re right, Joan, and that’s like I said, that’s one of the big areas of work that I’m sitting with right now, is actually looking at who are the right people for this work across mental, emotional, physical characteristics, sporting backgrounds, how they’ve developed through the years, all of that stuff builds you this character of person. And when you get to that really high end, pointy end of the performance spectrum, it needs all of the attributes. If you’re going to be the best in the world, then you need the inherent characteristics. So your physiological makeup does have some inherent characteristics that are not trainable. Very limited trainability.

Lynne Munro:

And so if you don’t have those, that’s what becomes the separator. And it’s really interesting in terms of the ethics of this is we have these very long term athlete development processes where people stay and stay and stay and stay and stay and finally don’t make it. And so there’s a piece in there of just going, “could we give people feedback earlier,” to say, “Okay, if you’re heading towards that, you just might not have it.” Now, think, again, you’ve got to be ethically able to say, “Well, do you 100% know they’re not going to make it? Are you taking some of these dream away when actually you don’t 100% know?” So there’s some challenges there.

Lynne Munro:

But I also don’t think that we’re doing a service to athletes by keeping them in something that they’ve got this massive, aspirational dream towards, and you kind of going like, just like, “fundamentally, let’s just simplistically say you’re not fast twitch fibers. If you’re not fast twitch fibers, are you going to be the world’s fastest person?” No. And you can have the most passion, the most drive the most unrelenting approach to yourself and if you just don’t have your contract, our call is of muscle to be able to contract and relax quickly. You’re just never going to be the world’s fastest person. So can we actually use that information wisely and ethically in this?

Joan Hanscom:

So interesting. We’re going to take a quick break for our sponsors. And we will be right back.

Speaker 3:

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Joan Hanscom:

Super interesting Lynne. It’s super interesting. I think about, again, I grew up wanting to be a professional ballerina. Right? So I have short legs. And I remember auditioning for the Boston Ballet at 108 pounds. And five eight, 108 pounds. And they said, “you have everything we want, except you’re 10 pounds too heavy.” And I thought, “well, there goes the ballet career.” But they did that thing, right, where they’re just like, “Well, you got to be 98 pounds to be a ballet dancer.” And I was like, “Well, okay, I can’t be 98 pounds.” And I was glad they cut me off. But it was also a horrible thing to say. Because what if I’d gone for 98 pounds, that would have been crossing an ethical boundary?

Lynne Munro:

You’re saying [inaudible 00:37:00] Yeah, we’ve got to be careful. You can’t make calls too early, and take people’s dreams away. And that’s something that challenges the norm. And you look at, I think, the enemy is Victoria Pendleton scenario is really really interesting. Where the physical makeup of those two women were vastly different. And yet they were competing on the world stage as the arch rivals for the Olympic gold. So you’ve got to challenge some of the stuff. That’s one of the things that has changed phenomenally in sprint is, “what is the ideal sprinter?” Look at the track and field sprint scenario. The way those athletes looked 10, 20 years ago is very different from how we look because we start to understand biomechanics differently.

Lynne Munro:

So I think, yeah, you’ve got to be careful and the validation of what is inherent versus what is trainable or even slightly trainable is so important within this. And also what the goal of the athlete is? Is like if you literally have said, “I want Olympic gold,” then the coach’s role is to be as honest as possible. That’s an ethical necessity, to be brutally honest with people. And that’s sometimes where the hard stuff comes in as you’re having those honest conversations. And maybe it’s not something that that person wants to hear, but you got to do the right thing. If somebody is just saying, “Hey, I love doing my sport, and I just want to see how far it can go,” then don’t take the dream from them.

Joan Hanscom:

Right. Right, man, that is a big differentiator there.

Lynne Munro:

Yeah, look, I think there’s a couple of things again in this is, we have definitely honed what we need in order to get on the line in the best condition in terms of understanding nutrition and sleep and all of the additional factors, but there’s a big piece in this which is the athletes’ empowerment. And to me, and again, it’s sort of to reinforce what I said earlier about not being based as a scientific coach, rather than being the personable coach. It’s about the person and empowering that person and knowing that some of those kind of performance characteristics of who the people are that make it are the ones who go the extra mile, because that’s just who they are. They want to do the detail. They want to do the extra stuff, they want to do… And it’s not always doing more, I think that’s important to say, it’s having the right balance. It’s having the balance of you’ve got to train hard but sleep and eat and recover well, as well.

Lynne Munro:

But there’s people who really know themselves. They know how to do that. This autonomy that you want to achieve in a rider and an athlete is somebody who can step up on the line having everything of their person known as much as possible, because then they know how to respond. They know how to get the best out of himself in multiple scenarios under pressure. And that’s an important part. So we don’t want to be completely spoon feeding this. And that part of the coaching journey is so important. Early on, you do need to be more of a teacher, because athletes don’t have that knowledge but you’re still trying to get them to learn. So how do you get them to learn? It’s not keep telling them the answers, is helping them explore the answers because those answers will become very unique to who they are. And the individualization is so important, it’s unique to that person. So their learning experience is very different to the next person.

Lynne Munro:

So your journey, as the coach goes through that, and then into a more equal dialogue, where it’s actually the athlete who might be teaching you some stuff, but you’re trying to work with them, rather than be the teacher of them. And by the time you’re achieving we talk in coaching circles about being athlete centered. And I just don’t really think we are, really truthfully, in a lot of ways. We have the athlete at the center of our focus. But does that mean that they are the person who’s really helping drive this and really being the person who… It’s about them, it’s about their career, their needs. And that’s very unique. So there’s a really big missing piece in the puzzle here for me about really understanding how we use this kind of self determination theory, because I don’t think we’re actually using it in the way we think we are, and needing somebody to get on the line in a place where they’re totally empowered.

Joan Hanscom:

For me, one of the things that stands out in what you’ve just said, is how it all falls back on assessing, do they have the right attitude? Do they have the right mentality and the right approach to their daily life, both in training and outside of the tract? And that’s something that can really shift.

Lynne Munro:

Yes, everybody’s capable and will develop in characteristics and behaviors across their lifespan. And so it’s not just physical changes that… and really, at the end of this point, anything that we’re doing is like it does very much become character. And so how do you identify that as a coach? Where it’s something is just inherently going to be them, might make small shifts, stepwise shifts in characteristics, or somebody who’s just glowing in that stuff? And again, you don’t want to cut people from their dreams too early. But there was an interesting quote, I read in an article recently that’s that said, “professionalism is who you are not what you learn to do.” And I thought, “that’s great.” Because there’s something around somebody who’s this exceptional person, who just has this stuff.

Lynne Munro:

And yeah, they’re going to grow better in it, but how much can you take somebody who’s completely unprofessional, turning up late, not doing the due diligence around checking their equipment before they go and ride or whatever it is? How much are you going to make changes? Or how far down the line to be in this exception person can you get them? That’s a really interesting question. And again, I’m not trying to say by any stretch of imagination, you should write people off. And I don’t think you should write anybody off. I think it’s about tapping into everybody’s unique potential. That’s what your role as a coach is. But it just becomes an interesting question when you get to that point where you’re seeking to be the best in the world, is such a small percentage we’re talking here. And if you’re identifying those people, or who are they? Who are they really? And how much are you creating versus how much do they just inherently are?

Joan Hanscom:

That’s the million dollar question right there. And that’s what you’ve said, you spend your time trying to figure out and balance. That’s where it winds back to, like you said, the balance between science and sport. Sports Science is a term and it’s an important term, but the others have to understand this. One of the interesting things I’ve always asked is about when it comes to talent ID outside of bike racing.

Joan Hanscom:

As a lifetime cyclist, specifically, as a track cyclist, I feel confident in the amount of knowledge I have about bike racing. I just inherently know it from years of doing it. But I also appreciate how difficult it is when you take a talented person or gifted athlete and try to teach them cycling, then the nuance of track cycling, and then all the way into the details of track sprinting at the most elite level. “Oh, and by the way, you’ve got to be able to pull 80k an hour and you windup and do it efficiently over and over and over again and ride at nine five in the rounds after you just rode a nine two in qualifying.” Isn’t that almost a bigger undertaking in a lot of ways? How do you guys quantify that? Because to me, that’s absolutely terrifying.

Lynne Munro:

That is such a perfect question for where I’m at right now in Australian Cycling team and the work that I’m doing. It’s a really interesting one, because through the course of long term athlete development process, through the pathway, you’ve developed this confidence, this merging with the bike, and being able to be fearless with your bike skills. And by the way, that’s a really interesting one in terms of some of the differences between men and women and looking at the confidence piece again. Because you need to explore being in that really unconfident space to learn to be fearless. And there’s a there’s a difference that if you’ve come from a background where I still watch the boys at young age, popping wheelies, going up hills on road rides, and goofing off and doing all this stuff, which is teaching them all this stuff. And inherently, and I’m going to say as a trend, right? It’s never anything other than individual with characters, but women tend to not do that stuff, not do the goofing off stuff and challenge themselves.

Lynne Munro:

So what you see then is, as you said, is that over the long term process, you’ll see the sense of learning racecraft, learning skills, which holds you in such good stead. But then suddenly, we’ve got this amazing platform to go through kind of talent transfer or talent ID processes go. But what’s the characteristics, the physiological mental characteristics of somebody that’s really going to be needed to be the elite performer? And then can you teach them skills on the back of that? And we’re still exploring this, right? It’s been a relatively recent thing in cycling, to start really in sprint cycling anyway, we look at this kind of talent transfer process.

Lynne Munro:

And I think we are starting to see that the times are great. But the racecraft is not so developed. So how can we fast track that? What we absolutely know, we can fast track the physiological development. So if somebody’s got the mental emotional performance characteristics, then great, we’ve got the right character, we can fast track the physiological gains absolutely no problem. How do we develop the racecraft? Because that sort of stuff in terms of skill acquisition, there’s a process of absorbing information and learning to process. It can’t be a top thing. It has to be an experienced thing. Decision making is learned as an inherent capability where you’re reading and processing subconscious information, semi conscious, subconscious and processing that. So how do we fast track that stuff? I think we’re in that phase right now of learning. And who’s going to come out on top, the long term slow burners or the fast track? Who knows, probably a bit bounce of both.

Joan Hanscom:

What you’re talking about is an athlete and a rider that you’re giving a lot of success to, or contributing a lot of success to. Their trajectory is that they’re experiencing today was better than yesterday, I went faster, I beat this person, I beat that person. And especially with young athletes, it’s super easy in the beginning, because they’re growing and maturing and getting faster anyway. The thing that we’ve been discussing is the problem of overcoming fear. You can have someone that’s just so successful, that their first failure is really earth-shattering.

Joan Hanscom:

And one of the concepts the coaches I’ve been talking to about was, how do we plan for controlled failure? Because in the Olympic cycle, all of this, we’re doing as much as possible. Race only when we have to and spend all that other time training may be to the detriment of race experience. And if you’re so… especially a high trajectory athlete, you need opportunities to fail and grow. So what are your thoughts and experiences around that? The concept of a planned failure?

Lynne Munro:

What you’ve just summed up is in essence the fact that we tend to spend far too much time on physical training, and with a double in technical and double in tactical training. And so are we holistic way developing athletes? No, because we’ve actually got… So a friend of mine actually studied the periodization of character development in athletes. Should we actually be sitting there and making sure that there is a periodized approach or plan, structured approach to growing characteristics? So yeah, absolutely, we need to. Is it controlled failure? [inaudible 00:48:34] probably the one which run that. It’s like, “do you want to control that failure?” It’s planned failure. What you grow is the athletes’ ability to respond and bounce back from that. And that, again, if you were to look at the ideal characteristics or performance characteristics of an athlete, a high functioning athlete, there’s going to be something in there, that’s their ability to seek failure, because they know that that’s a learning opportunity, but their ability to respond to it.

Lynne Munro:

So, we talk about high responders and low responders. And high responders, like you said, the ones who have got that steep trajectory, who with the underpinning training principles, right, or, uniquely apply for them being as right as possible, they can respond really, really well. And they’re high responder physically but there’s high responders in terms of the other areas of performance as well. And so the growth potential in somebody might be higher or lower than another person. So yeah, all of that holistic part is really, really important because you’ll start to see where one area, whether it’s mental or physical, whichever area is a skill base, whatever, it starts to be the limiting factor. And at the high end, you can’t afford to have a limiting factor really, you can still play to your strengths and weaknesses, for sure. But there’s some sense and understanding what’s inherently needed.

Lynne Munro:

And I guess also, just picking up a little bit one of the things you said there and in terms of these kind of fast tracked riders, you just make them strong. This is the question though is like, “is it strength?” Because strength is a trainable thing? Or is it cadence? Cadence to me is much more relatable to your ability to switch on switch off muscles, which is that inherently fast twitch characteristic. So we’ve actually identified somebody who has fast twitch characteristics, they’re going to have leg speed. And they’ve got to learn to coordinate for sure. But they’re going to inherently have that ability to contract and relax slowly. And then you can make them strong. So there is a bill, if we get this model of who we’re looking for and how we’re looking for them, right? You end up being able to actually be somebody who still has the fact that somebody maybe that’s been a long slow burner has had through training.

Joan Hanscom:

Let’s talk about cadence because this is actually a shoptalk thing that I’d love to discuss with you. We are going into way out the realm of big gears. 150 inch gearing for the men, women are getting up to 130. We are sealing really high speeds, cadences, RPM averaging around 200. You were looking at mid 120s and below. Now we see people who are experienced, a lot of cyclists getting down into the 110, 120 range without going too much down the [kins 00:51:15] rabbit hole. What’s the biggest game changer that makes the gears possible? And you’re talking about the ability to turn on and turn off quickly? High have a cadence do you actually need to have to be able to compete when you’re not going to pedal above 140 RPM in a race scenario ever?

Lynne Munro:

Right? But there’s still the underlying power cadence relationship, right? So Well, as you say, without going too deep into is, we have this power cadence relationship where we’re going to produce peak power at an optimal cadence for ourselves, right, generally sits between, probably 120, 135. So that’s where you’re going to produce your peak power. So it may be that you don’t erase it at these really high end cases. But what ends up happening is that somebody who’s got an inherently high absolute peak cadence, they’re unloaded shortening velocity of the muscles, is there going to have a power cadence relationship, which looks very special, right? They’re going to be able to produce power, really effective cadences. And so you’re using that information. Right?

Lynne Munro:

So there’s a couple of interesting things and why we’re using the big gears is, one is, there are some people who just don’t inherently have this wonderfully sprint characteristic, the perfect sprint characteristic. So they play to their strengths, which is pedal slower, use bigger gears. So there’s some riders out there across all levels of pathway who are playing to, “if I just make the gear bigger, I’m going to be able to use more strength and therefore shy away from having to go to higher cadences,” because they just don’t inherently have that in themselves. Right? But what we found here in Australia, at least is that the real special ones, they still have that cadence ability, as well. So they can be strong, but they can still… So you end up with this profile, it’s a wider profile and more able to be used effectively.

Lynne Munro:

So that’s one thing. And I think that’s an important one to say to, especially, people listening out there is, you don’t just play to going bigger in your gears, right, that’s potentially saying I’ve got a weakness. So you need to, when you’re developing, develop the full spectrum of cadence, don’t limit yourself, otherwise, you’re going to find yourself that that’s all you’ve got. You’ve become the one trick pony, that that’s all you’ve got to use.

Lynne Munro:

The other side of this in terms of using the big gears is because of the number of contractions that you have to do in any effort. So you can save yourself some fatigue. The more you contract and relax, the more that you’re going to build up fatigue for a number of reasons. And so you can play to that core as well. So we, for example, we can use the gear efforts in training to allow us to do more efforts, if that’s the intention, right? So you play using the gear stuff for a specific reason. And so yeah, there is a natural sense. We’re going to the bigger gears, because we’re starting, that’s why i said earlier in the chat, we’re starting to understand more how to optimize things, to reduce the rate of fatigue, to be able to play to strength, etc, etc. And all of that is still coming into the equation even for the ones who have cadence too. But the ones who are really coming out top have got this very unique power cadence relationship, which is saying something about their underpinning physiology.

Joan Hanscom:

Very interesting. And yes, you always want someone that can be the whole package. Harry in Holland with a Dutch, he’s able to get to 150 in sprint on his gear and hold it and ride nine five at the bottom of the track off a 17 0 start. So yeah, you can’t be a one trick pony and do that correct.

Lynne Munro:

And the ability to switch on and off happens during acceleration as well as high leg speed. Got your rate of force development things. And one of the things I think is really, really interesting in team sprint right now is we’re starting To look around at how the whole team hangs together very differently. And so the ability to pedal across a range of cadences equally effectively to play on different gears and play different roles in that technical delivery is so, so important.

Lynne Munro:

And you’ve got to be able as a rider to have a wide bandwidth for a coach to come in and say, “Well, look at the Australian team and World Champs this year is we ended up losing Matthew [Gard 00:55:26]. So who’s our third wheel rider?” 10 days out from competition and we go, “what do we do?” Right. So the only option we had was then the academy level riders coming in to plug a hole and you go, “Okay, well, are they going to get on if Matt Richardson gets off the line quickly, Nighthawk gets off on quickly? Is somebody coming in? A man three who’s still developing, you’re going to get on?” No.

Lynne Munro:

So we end up with Tom Cornish in one. And Matt Richardson ends up in three, because it’s actually about, “we need to get this team accelerated to the highest possible speed.” So we end up with Tom Cornish, was Jr. World kilo record holder. And that’s absolutely inherent man three right there. And that’s what he’s going to end up, I’m sure as, one day, man three in the Olympic team. And then you’ve got Matt Richardson who’s [inaudible 00:56:12] or who’s been training starts and single works, for all of the months leading up to it. That speaks volumes. And it’s just there’s so much in terms of having to have that spectrum underneath you that we are able to make use of that and apply it to really find what the winning team to hang together as.

Joan Hanscom:

I’ve watched the star Atlas for worlds, and I thought that it was a misprint. I was like, “why is Matt at the back? They’ve got this wrong.” Matt was at the front and Tom must have been at the back. I know, sure enough, I watched the video and I was like, “no way. Look at that, Matt’s in the back. And he’s going really well.” Yeah, that’s the perfect example right there and I’m so glad you brought that up. I’m also glad that you brought up the Team Sprint, because I wanted to talk to you about women’s teams go into three riders.

Lynne Munro:

Yeah, look, I’m thrilled with the developments in the women’s team sprint. And it is speaks a lot to this equality piece, equity pieces, not treating women differently. It’s like, “yeah, there are some fundamental characteristics in terms of physiology, cardiac volume, and things like that.” But we also have a lot of myths out there in terms of what we think are differences in women. I think it’s a good statement to make that there’s a lot of stuff coming out right now about how we train women, which I realized I don’t know. We actually don’t know the answer to that. Let’s actually get the environment for women, right first, because that inherently, is what’s going to allow women to get faster. So let’s look at the environment. Let’s look at the dynamics, let’s get all of that stuff on the table really effective.

Lynne Munro:

And then let’s start questioning how we train and use physiology. Because so many of the studies that are out there on women are not really based either on high performing women, so high performing athletes, or the training studies that are based around men. So we’ve got a lot of myths to debunk. And so actually putting this on the table saying, “Yeah, let’s make women equal in Team Sprint, and the race discipline’s great.” Absolutely. Because now we can start actually building the sport with that equality at the heart of it.

Lynne Munro:

There is I think, there will be some challenges in terms of the depth of field for the Team Sprint initially but again, that’s a good place to be, is to encourage that we need more women to make this happen. So there’s another additional benefit of doing that. And so, sometimes straight away when we’re deciding pros and cons of decisions, we go straight to, “are women different? Is the physiology different? Can they handle it in adversity commas? Whatever we’re discussing on the table? But there’s some things that we’re probably not bringing to the fore so much like these things, the additional benefits, more women being more equal, being considered in an equal playing field and then requiring some of the research to be done to really understand what’s needed. So it’s going to drive a lot of really brilliant changes for women in making that decision. So yeah, really, really stoked.

Joan Hanscom:

Last question. We want your side bet and you can’t say Australia because you’re Australian and you coach the team. I know they’re up there but men and women’s Team Sprint and Tokyo, who’s your money on?

Lynne Munro:

Look, at… I’ll say up front, it’s important. We, Australia is one of those nations. I’m sure everybody goes in it to win it. But we have a gold medal strategy around everything. We’re absolutely relentlessly focused on gold. That’s what we do. So we’re in it to win it. But if I ever want to go who’s our competitors and this there’s no question.

Joan Hanscom:

And who do you see being on the podium?

Lynne Munro:

Yeah, we got to look at the Dutch being there. There’s no question we’d be idiots not to be sitting there and looking at what they’re doing for the men and going, “Yeah, they’re doing something really special. What are the margins to get us up there and contending with them, no question.” I think with the women as you said, you look at the World Champs then the medal contenders, the medal right off, gold and bronze medal riders.

Lynne Munro:

So, we’ve got Australia, Germany, Russia, China, all within a margin of each other. And so that’s a really interesting one. But we’re in this very interesting year where you’ve got kind of remnants of a two up Team Sprint, moving into progression of a three, Team Sprint. And so you start to look up where the depth of field is right now to go to World Champs, is going to be a very different scenario from the Olympics. So it’s a fascinating area for women. And I think, in terms of that first rule, Champs three up is you’ve got some programs like Germany, who have got some depth of field there, already. And so they’re already going to be in that mode of being able to rehearse and practice.

Lynne Munro:

But at the same time, as I said earlier, some of the work that I’m personally doing right now to look at, “how do we get to that position where women are able to fast track?” We are looking at the characteristics needed, and we’re looking at who we need, in order to make sure that we’re going to do something really special in that regard. So yeah. And I know that there’ll be an era that will be looked back on in years to come where we’ve gone to Team Sprint being three for women. And you’ve seen multiples things at play that are not just about, “do you have the best riders?” It’s going to be how you get them to the line.

Joan Hanscom:

We’re going to see, we’re going to see. It’s going to be exciting when the games roll around, hopefully, fingers crossed, that they do roll around, and that we get everything sorted. And everything else sorted in the world first, right?

Lynne Munro:

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But look how exciting that is itself. Like, “okay, I don’t know, this is one of the most challenging eras that people certainly in our lifetime have gone through and there’s some incredible losses happening. But there’s also a lot of learning and growth in the background.” And the human race is going to move forward in incredible ways from this and sport is positioned to do exactly that. We’re kind of all in our little bunkers, doing our little things and trying to figure out where the gains are and learning and growing in different ways. And I think that’s going to be really fascinating emerging from our little dark places. And have we emerged [crosstalk 01:02:26]

Joan Hanscom:

After the year of great interruption is what we keep calling it here. Is the year of interruption, but people will shed the confines and come out either butterflies or not. But this has been just an incredibly fascinating conversation. And I, for myself, cannot thank you enough for sharing what you’ve shared. It’s been really just, I think, incredibly fascinating talk. And so I just want to thank you for sharing all you’ve done and Andy, I’m sure you are taking copious notes on your end, just from a personal interest standpoint. But yeah, this has been super fascinating. And I can’t wait to see what you’re up to next. And we’ll happily have you on the pod anytime you want to talk because it’s been extra fascinating and I just want to thank you again. We want to do what we can in partnership to promote women in the sport. And yeah, that’s really great.

Lynne Munro:

So thank you guys. Like I said earlier, I love coming over to T-Town and all of the fact that I kind of feel like I know you guys pretty good now. And yeah, things like this are so important. And not just for the sport and having sprint be more understood, there’s a lot more that we can do to help the community. It’s about having a community of sprint, it’s not just about high performance, and we want more people really understanding, enjoying and getting the most out of their training. But as you said, Joan, specifically for women right now, we need as many platforms as possible to start talking and just air in some of the support that we would like to have because it needs everybody to bring together and move things forward. So thank you and yeah, they will love to take you up on that opportunity to come back on later and talk some more.

Joan Hanscom:

Right on. Well, this has been the Talk of the T-Town Podcast with our guest, Lynne Munro and Andy Lakatosh joining us live from Los Angeles and tune in on Tuesdays. Please be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Leave us ratings and send us questions if you have anything you want us to forward on to Lynne. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3:

This has been the Talk of the T-Town Podcast with host Joan Hanscom and Andy Lakatosh. Thanks for joining us for this week’s episode brought to you by B. Braun Medical Inc. Head on over to our website, The Velodrome.com where you can check out the show notes and subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode.